A FRIENDLY DISCUSSION

By Elder Ben E. Rich
New Edition

STAGE SET FOR A FRIENDLY DISCUSSION

The scene of this narrative is a small town in the southwestern part of 
Tennessee, which we shall call Westminster.  In this pretty village is a home 
of entertainment for strangers.  It can scarcely be termed a hotel as it 
partakes largely of a character of a private residence with accommodations 
for a limited number of guests and visitors are attracted to it by its 
homelike characteristics.  A planter named Marshall was the proprietor of the 
premises which was known as Harmony Place.

At the particular time of which we write the house had three guests -- a 
lawyer named Brown who had selected Westminster as a place favorable for the 
establishment of the practice of his profession; a physician named Slocum, 
who had similar intention; and a tourist named Fitzallen, who was traveling 
in the pursuit of health and pleasure.

At this time another visitor made his appearance.  He was an attractive 
looking man, aged about 30, with genial manners and a striking, clear method 
of presenting his thoughts in the course of conversation.  This was Charles 
Durant, who hailed from the West.

The evening of the first day that marked the stranger’s advent into 
Westminster found this group on the veranda of Harmony Place.

One subject after another was taken up, discussed and disposed of, or at 
least laid aside to give way to some other.

RELIGION ENTERS THE DISCUSSION

Two topics which agitate us nationally and sometimes locally more than any 
other -- politics and religion -- had so far escaped; they had not, however, 
been unthought of, and presently the latter was begun by the tourist saying:

“As one interested in the church, I am pleased to be able to state that in 
matters of organization, discipline and places of worship, America is 
thoroughly Christianized.”

“I partially concur with you,” said the lawyer, “and yet I belong to no 
church at all -- do not, in fact, endorse Christianity as a department of 
civilized life.”

“Why how is that?”  said Fitzallen, “I thought nearly everybody in this 
country must be orthodox to some extent, at least.”

“Not so with me, I assure you,” the other replied, “and the strange part of 
it is, that my views are the result of investigation and of the peculiar 
explanations of those who make religious teaching their calling.  Those who 
accept the creeds which are supposed to base their tenets upon the Bible, do 
not, it appears to me, live up to their professions.”

The stranger from the West was listening to all this with the air of one 
deeply interested.  It was as if a desired opportunity had come, and he was 
not reluctant about replying when questioned as to his own views.  It came 
when Fitzallen, after announcing his determination to “labor” with the 
infidel, turned to the newcomer and said:

“I don’t know whether you will be for or against me in this discussion, but 
as you come from what we of the East are prone to regard as the land where 
restraints are not severe, I presume you are disposed to assist him rather 
than me.”

MR. DURANT AGREES TO DISCUSSION RELIGION

“Well, gentlemen,” said Durant, “this topic interests me, and while I and my 
opinions are unknown to you, I will, if agreeable to you endeavor to 
contribute something to the discussion.  I am a believer in religion and lay 
claim to a testimony of the truth of the gospel of Christ from a divine 
source, and yet I often find myself opposed by ministers.”

“I cannot imagine why this should be the case,” said Fitzallen, “if you are, 
as you state, a true believer in Christ and have a witness of him.”

“If you will permit me to ask a few questions during your conversation with 
Mr. Brown, I may be able to take a general part in the discussion, provided, 
however, that should we differ upon any point it will be in a friendly 
manner.”

“Certainly,” said Fitzallen, “I am sure it will be a pleasure to me to have 
you join in our conversation, and I do not doubt that Mr. Brown and the other 
gentlemen feel the same way.”

The entire party expressed approval of the proposed interchange of opinions.

“Then, Mr. Brown,” said Fitzallen, “what particular part of the Christian 
faith appears to you as being most difficult to understand?”

ERRONEOUS CONCEPT OF GOD

“I confess there are many.  However, let us commence with one of the 
principles of your belief.  In at least one Prayer Book the following 
declaration is made:  ‘There is but one living and true God, everlasting; 
without body, parts or passions; of infinite power, wisdom and goodness; the 
maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible; and in the 
unity of this Godhead there are three persons of one substance, power and 
eternity -- the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.’  According to this, then, 
your belief is that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person without 
body, parts or passions.”

“You have certainly quoted correctly from the prayerbook; I fail to see 
anything wrong with that.  What fault have you to find with it, Mr. Brown?”

“I cannot form a conception of a God who has neither body, parts nor 
passions.  So far as the Bible is concerned, I fail to see from what part of 
the book you derive such a conclusion.”

“Well, Mr. Brown, using your own language, ‘so far as the Bible is 
concerned,’ let us do as Isaiah commands, go ‘to the law and to the 
testimony’ (Isaiah 8:20) and I will soon convince you that the Bible plainly 
sets forth the fact that the Father and the Son are one.  In fact, Jesus 
himself declares that he and his Father are one.  (John 10:30)  Is this not 
true?”

ONENESS OF FATHER AND SON

“Excuse me,” interrupted Durant, “but is it not more reasonable for us to 
believe that he meant that he and his Father are united in all things as one 
person? -- not that they are actually one and the same identity?”

“Certainly not,” said Fitzallen, “our Savior meant just what he said when he 
declared that he and his Father are one?”

“I differ from you,” replied Durant, “for he also asked his Father to make 
his disciples one, even as he and the Father were one, as you will see by 
reference to John 17:20 and 21, and by your argument it must have been his 
wish for those disciples to lose their separate and distinct identities.”

“Let me ask,” said Fitzallen, “did not Jesus say, ‘He that hath seen me hath 
seen the Father’?”  (John 14:9)

“Stranger,” said Brown, “your view of the case, I must confess, appears 
reasonable.”

“Yes,” said the Westerner, “for as Paul says, He was in ‘the express image of 
his [Father’s] person’ (Hebrews 1:3) and this being the case, Jesus might 
well give them to understand that when they had seen one they had seen the 
other.  When Jesus went out to pray, he said, ‘O my Father, if it be 
possible, let this cup pass from me:  nevertheless, not as I will, but as 
thou wilt.’  (Matthew 26:39)  Now, then, to whom was our Savior praying?  Was 
he asking a favor of himself?”

“Oh, no; he was then praying to the Holy Spirit.”

SEPARATE PERSONS IN GODHEAD

“Then by such admission,” replied Durant, “you have separated one of the 
three from Jesus, for in the beginning you declared that the three were one; 
and now that we have one of the three separated from the others, let us see 
if we can separate the other two.  In order to do this, I refer you to the 
account of the martyrdom of Stephen.  While being stoned to death he looked 
up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and that Jesus was standing on the 
right hand of God.  (Acts 7:55-56)  Would it not be impossible for a person 
to stand on the right hand of himself?  In further proof that Jesus is a 
separate person from the Father we shall examine the account of his baptism.  
On coming up out of the water, what was it that lighted on him in the form of 
a dove?”  (Matthew 3:16)

“We are told it was the Spirit of God.”

“Exactly!  And whose voice was it that spoke from the heavens, ‘This is my 
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.’  (Matthew 3:17)  Now, mind you, 
there was Jesus, who had been raised from the water, being one person, the 
Holy Ghost, which descended from above and rested upon him in the form of a 
dove, making two personages; and does not the idea strike you very forcibly 
that the voice from heaven belonged to a third person?  And then again I will 
draw your attention to --“

Fitzallen was getting impatient.  Said he: 

“These are things which we are not expected to understand; and, my young 
friends, I would advise you to drop such foolish ideas for --“

LIFE ETERNAL TO KNOW GOD

“Excuse me,” continued Duran.  “Did you say foolish ideas?  Why, my dear sir, 
we are told in the Bible that ‘This is life eternal, that they might know 
thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.’  (John 17:3)  
Therefore it should be our first duty to find out the character and being of 
God.  You say we are not expected to understand these things, while the Bible 
says these are what we must understand if we desire eternal life.  It also 
says we can understand the things of man by the spirit of man, but to 
comprehend the things of God we must have the Spirit of God; (1 Corinthians 
2:11) and as you profess to be one of his servants, you are presumed to be in 
possession of the necessary light to understand the true and living God, also 
Jesus Christ whom he sent.  You say God has no body, did our Savior have one?  
If so, then his Father has one, for I have just proved by the words of Paul 
that Christ was in the express image of his person.  Jesus appeared in the 
midst of his disciples after his resurrection with a body of flesh and bones, 
and calling upon his disciples to satisfy themselves on this point by 
touching him; ‘for,’ says he, ‘a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see 
me have.’  Then he called for something to eat and he did eat, (Luke 24:39-
42) and with his tangible body he ascended into heaven and stood as Stephen 
says, on the right hand of God.  Now if he has no body, what became of the 
one he took away with him?”

“This is nonsense!”  replied Fitzallen, “You know that God is a Spirit, and I 
think we would better not to delve too deeply into matters we are not 
permitted to comprehend.”

GOD HAS BODY AND SPIRIT

Durant continued:  “Pray listen a while longer, for I have yet more to say in 
regard to what you call nonsense, although, if it be such, I must insist that 
it is Bible nonsense.  You say God is a spirit; does that prove he has no 
body?  We are told we must worship him in spirit.  Am I to understand from 
this that we must worship him without a body?  Have you a spirit?  Yes.  Have 
you also a body?  Yes.  Were you made in the image of God, body and spirit?  
So says the Bible.  Man was created in the image of God.  (Genesis 1:26-27)  
Then God has a body and, consequently, must have parts.  Moses talked with 
him face to face, as one man talks with another (Exodus 33:11) and he also 
saw his back parts.  He promised to speak with Moses mouth to mouth.  
(Numbers 12:8)  We are told in the fifth chapter of Deuteronomy that he has a 
hand and arm.  The Psalm tells us he has eyes, (Psalm 139:16) and Isaiah says 
he has lips and tongue.  (Isaiah 30:27)  John describes his head, hair and 
eyes.  (Revelation 1:13-18)  And as for passion, we are told in the Bible 
that he exercises love and is a jealous God.  (Exodus 20:5)  Are these not 
parts and passions?  It would appear that all who believe in the Scriptures 
must conclude that they are parts and passions, and that the Creator is a God 
after whose likeness we were made.”

“Well,” replied Fitzallen, “I had no idea when I commenced this conversation 
with Mr. Brown that I was to find such an antagonist in yourself.  One would 
naturally come to the conclusion that you have made the Bible a study.”

“I have as a Christian studied the record,” answered the Westerner.  “In 
fact, at a very early age my parents required me to commit and remember a 
very important verse in that good old book.  It is found in the fifth chapter 
of the Gospel according to St. John, being the 39th verse, and reads as 
follows:  ‘Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:  
and they are they which testify of me.’”

“That is proper, but I must again warn you,” cautioned Fitzallen, “against 
plunging into mysteries which we cannot understand.”

PROPHECIES OF NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION

“But,” countered Durant, “Peter tells us that ‘no prophecy of the scripture 
is of any private interpretation’ (2 Peter 1:20) and these are the things 
upon which we should seek information; for lack of information upon these 
points is, to a great extent, the cause of many persons being in Mr. Brown’s 
frame of mind today.”

“If your assertion is correct, perhaps it would be better for me to withdraw 
and leave Mr. Brown in your hands.”

“I beg your pardon,” said Mr. Durant, “I did not mean to offend you; I will 
endeavor to be more careful during the rest of the conversation.”

“We will resume the discussion at another time.  Tonight I only intended 
remaining a short time, having an important engagement; so, if you will 
excuse me, I will wish you all good evening”; with that Fitzallen left.

“Well,” said Mr. Brown, “things have taken a very peculiar turn.  I seem to 
be out of the contest.  I have heard more than appears reasonable from you, 
Mr. Durant, regarding religion than ever before in my life, and I must also 
admit that if my early teaching on religious matters had been of this 
character, I believe I would have been a Christian.  I am somewhat familiar 
with the doctrines of the different Christian societies and from the way you 
express yourself regarding the personality of God, I would like very much to 
hear your views regarding other differences.  Do you disagree with, shall I 
say, the popular beliefs, on other points of doctrine?”

“I am afraid the difference on many important principles is just as great as 
that concerning the personality of God.  But if you really desire to go with 
me in this search after the kingdom of God, and the others are willing, I 
assure you it will give me great pleasure.”

TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY

The lawyer and doctor both expressed approval, with Mr. Brown saying:

“I never before had as great a desire in this direction and must confess that 
my curiosity has become quite aroused.”

“Then, said Mr. Durant, “we shall take King James’ translation of the 
scriptures as the law-book, and ‘Seek ye first the kingdom of God’ for our 
text; and if we should discover before we have finished that the teachings of 
men differ from the teachings of Christ, I will be somewhat justified in 
saying that the inhabitants of the earth have ‘transgressed the laws, changed 
the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant’.”  (Isaiah 24:5; Jeremiah 
2:13)

“Very well,” said Mr. Brown, “you may proceed,” and obtaining the family 
Bible he continued:  “And should your assertions prove correct, it would 
account for the increase of infidelity, and it might also cause others as 
well as myself to stop and consider.  Now, then, to the ‘law and testimony.’  
Give me the chapter and verse, that I may know you make no mistakes.”

The doctor then for the first time took part, saying:  “I am also becoming 
very much interested, and think I shall join you with my Bible.  Let us all 
come into the circle.”

“All right,” commenced Durant, “we will examine the gospel of Jesus Christ 
from the Bible, principle by principle.  In order to have a clear 
understanding concerning this, it will be necessary for us to go back to the 
days of our Father Adam.  Through the transgression of our first parents, 
death came upon the human family, and mankind could not of themselves 
overcome the same and obtain immortality.  To substantiate this, see the 
first, second and third chapters of Genesis; Romans 5th chapter and 12 verse 
and 1 Corinthians 15th chapter and 21st and 22nd verses.  But in order that they 
should not perish, God sent his son Jesus Christ into the world to satisfy 
this broken law and to deliver mankind from the power of death.  Read John 
3:16; Romans 5:8; John 4:10.  And as all became subject to death by Adam, so 
will all men be resurrected from death through the atonement of Christ.  Now 
read 1 Cor. 15:20-23; Rom. 5:12-19.  And all will stand before the judgment 
seat of God to answer for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression.  
Read Acts 17:31; Rev. 20:12-16; Matt. 16:27.  Am I right as far as I have 
gone?”

“Yes,” said the doctor, “I have been following you with your quotations, and 
find them correct.  Proceed.”

FOLLOW CHRIST TO FIND SALVATION

“Then I have proved to be incorrect one of the principles adhered to by many 
for they do not believe that the wicked will have the same chance for 
resurrection as the righteous.  Jesus Christ did not die for our individual 
sins, except on condition that we conform to the plan he marked out, which 
will bring us a remission of our sins.  The only way we can prove we love him 
is by keeping his commandments, (John 14:15) therefore, if we say we love God 
and keep not his commandments, we are liars and the truth is not in us.  (1 
John 2:4)  I think I have proved to our satisfaction that there is something 
defective in their understanding of the attributes of God, and I think I can 
prove also that they do not keep his commandments.  Christ has given us to 
understand two things which you must remember while on this search after the 
‘kingdom of God’:  first, that we must follow him; secondly, that when he 
left his disciples, he was to send them the Comforter that would lead them 
into all truth; (John 16:7-15) therefore we must follow Christ and accept all 
the principles which were taught by his disciples while in possession of the 
Holy Spirit, though it should prove the whole world to be in error.”

“Thus far,” said the lawyer, “your arguments are reasonable, also in 
accordance with Holy Writ; and as there is no other name given us except 
Jesus Christ whereby we can be saved, (Acts 4:12) you may now lay before us 
the conditions; but give us chapter and verse, as I said before, that we may 
know you speak correctly.”

FAITH ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION

Durant continued:  “We will now examine into the conditions; but first 
remember that God does not send men into the world for the purpose of 
preaching contrary doctrines, for this always creates confusion, and God is 
not the author of confusion but of peace.  (1 Corinthians 14:33)  Paul has 
said if any man teach another gospel let him be accursed.  (Galatians 1:8-9)  
The first condition is this:  To believe there is a God -- the God that 
created man in his own image -- and to have faith in that God and in Jesus 
Christ whom he sent.”

“Go on,” said the party in concert.

“Well,” continued Durant, “the kind of faith required is that which will 
enable a man, under all circumstances, to say, ‘I am not ashamed of the 
gospel of Christ:  for it is the power of God unto salvation.  (Romans 1:16)  
This is the kind of faith by which the worlds were framed; by which Noah 
prepared an ark; by which the Red Sea was crossed as on dry land; by which 
the walls of Jericho fell; it was by faith that kingdoms were subdued; 
righteousness was wrought; promises were obtained, and the mouths of lions 
were closed.  (Hebrews 11)  This faith comes by hearing the word of God, 
(Romans 10:17) and the lack of this faith and the absence of prayer and 
fasting caused even the Apostles to fail on one occasion in casting out 
devils.  (Matthew 17:14-21)  No wonder, then, that without faith it is 
impossible to please God.  (Hebrews 11:6)  Faith, then, is the first grand 
steppingstone to that celestial pathway leading towards salvation.

“The more we search into eternal truth, the more we discover that God works 
upon natural principles.  All the requirements which he makes of us are very 
plain and simple.  How natural that the principle of faith should be the 
primary one of our salvation!  With what principle are we more familiar?  
Faith is the first great principle governing all things; but great as it is, 
it is dead without works.  (James 2:14-17)  We must not expect salvation by 
simply believing that Jesus is the Christ, for the devils in purgatory are 
that far advanced.  (James 2:19)  In fact, if you will read the entire second 
chapter of James you will see that faith without works is as dead and 
helpless as the body after the spirit has departed from it.  It is folly to 
think of gaining exaltation in his presence unless we obey the principles he 
advocated, (Matthew 7:21-23) for no one speaks truthfully by saying he is a 
disciple of Christ wile not observing his commandments.  (John 8:31)  In 
fact, the only way by which man can truthfully say he loves Jesus Christ is 
by keeping his commandments.”  (John 14:21-22)

SALVATION NOT BY BELIEF ALONE
“Is it not recorded in Holy Writ,” said the doctor, “that if we believe in 
the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved?”

“You have referred to the words used by Paul and Silas to the keeper of the 
prison,” replied Durant, turning the pages of his Bible.  “These principles 
were asked, by this jailer, what he should do to be saved, and the answer 
was, as you have quoted, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be 
saved, and they house.’  (Acts 16:31-33)  Then the disciples immediately laid 
before them those principles which constitute true belief, and not until this 
man and his house had embraced the principles taught by those disciples were 
they filled with true belief and really rejoiced.  You see by this example 
that we must not deceive ourselves by thinking that we can be hearers of the 
word only and not doers."” (James 1:22-23)

“But,” said the lawyer, “here is a passage found in the tenth chapter of 
Romans, which, in my opinion, will be difficult for you to explain.  The 
passage referred to reads as follows:  ‘If thou shalt confess with thy mouth 
the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him 
from the dead, thou shalt be saved.’  (Romans 10:9)  Now, then, it looks to 
me as if salvation is here promised through faith alone.  How do you explain 
it?”

“Very easily.  Let us thoroughly examine this passage in all its different 
phases.  In the first place, this letter was written by Paul to individuals 
who were already members of the Church.  They had rendered obedience to the 
laws of salvation, and having complied with those requirements were entitled 
to salvation providing their testimony remained within them like a living 
spring; and in order that they should not become lukewarm, Paul exhorted them 
to continue bearing testimony of the divinity of Christ, and not let their 
heart lose sight of the fact that God had raised his Son from the dead, and 
inasmuch as they kept themselves in this condition, salvation would be 
theirs.  This is the only sensible view one can take of this passage.  
Unquestionably Paul was speaking to sincere members of the Church, who had 
been correctly initiated into the fold of Christ, not aliens living 1800 
years after.”

“That appears to be correct,” conceded Brown, “but further on in the same 
chapter, we find this  expression:  ‘For whosoever shall call upon the name 
of the Lord shall be saved.’  (Romans 10:13)  It appears to me that here that 
reference is not made to those who had embraced the gospel and those who had 
the faith, but salvation is made general to whomsoever shall call upon the 
name of the Lord.”

“Exactly, but the next verse gives an explanation so simple that none can 
fail to understand it:  ‘How then shall they call on him in whom they have 
not believed?  and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  
and how shall they hear without a preacher? … So then faith cometh by 
hearing, and hearing by the word of God.’  (Romans 10:14, 17)  In other 
words, if there is faith, there have been works, and having true faith, no 
person will remain in that condition without complying with further works of 
salvation to which that faith urges him.”

“I see,” said Brown, the other remaining silent but interested; “you are 
right.”

“Now, then, gentlemen,” said Durant, “I maintain, as before stated that faith 
is the first principle of the gospel leading to salvation, but it will not 
bring us to the summit of the gospel ladder -- without the other principles.”

REPENTANCE ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION

“Well, suppose we accept this as the first round in the ladder, where will we 
find the second?”  asked the doctor.

“The second follows, just as naturally as the second step follows the first 
when a child learns to walk.  When faith in God is once created the knowledge 
that we have at some time, perhaps many times during our lives, done things 
displeasing to him, remorse naturally follows immediately, therefore 
repentance makes its appearance as the second principle of the gospel.  When 
John came preaching in the wilderness as the forerunner of Christ, his 
message to the people was ‘Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’  
(Matthew 3:2)  When Jesus came into Galilee preaching the gospel of the 
kingdom of God, it was with a message calling them to repentance.  (Mark 1:5)  
When he chose his disciples and began sending them forth it was to call 
mankind to repentance.  (Mark 6:7-12)  When he upbraided the cities wherein 
the most of his mighty works were done it was because they repented not.  
(Matthew 11:20)

“True repentance is that which will cause him who stole to steal no more; 
that which will keep corrupt communications from our mouth; that which will 
cause us so to conduct our walks through life as not to grieve the Spirit of 
God; that which will cause all bitterness, wrath, anger, and evil speaking to 
be put away from us, and will make us kind to one another, tenderhearted and 
forgiving, even as God for Christ’s sake has forgiven us.  (Ephesians 4:28-
32)  When he who has committed a sin shall commit it no more, then he has 
repented with that Godly sorrow which worketh repentance to salvation, and 
not with the sorrow of the world, bringing with it death.  (2 Corinthians 
7:10)  When a sinner thus repents more joy is found in heaven than over 
ninety and nine just persons who need not repentance.  (Luke 15:7)  This, 
then is the second round in the gospel ladder, according to the plan given us 
by the Master, and without it, faith is of no substantial benefit.”

“Your reasoning is both logical and just,” said Brown, “and no one can find 
any fault with those doctrines. T his world of ours, would certainly be more 
pleasant if these things were followed, and when a person is filled with that 
kind of faith, and has truly repented, it must be clear that he is entitled 
to salvation.”

BAPTISM ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION

“But he must not stop at that,” the speaker went on; “there are other 
principles just as necessary for him to obey.  If I am in possession of 
enough faith to convince me that I have sinned against you, and the knowledge 
of this causes me sincerely to repent, I must not and cannot rest until I am 
satisfied I have your forgiveness for the wrong.  So it is with sinning 
against God and his laws; he has marked out the path of repentance and it is 
our duty to follow that divine way until we arrive at the sacred altar of 
forgiveness.  Sin must be forgiven before it can be wiped out, and God in his 
wisdom selected and placed in his Church water baptism for this purpose.  It 
is a means whereby a man can receive remission of sin.”

“And do you really believe that baptism brings remission of sin?”  queried 
the lawyer.

“Certainly; provided, however, honest faith and sincere repentance go before 
it, and the ordinance is administered in the proper way by one endowed with 
divine authority; otherwise I believe it is of no avail whatever.”

To this the doctor answered:  “It seems to me you surround the principle of 
baptism with more safeguards than anyone else of whom I have ever heard.”

“Perhaps I do, and yet it should not be the case.  Every principle of the 
gospel should be well and carefully protected, and the failure on the part of 
man to do this is the main cause of so many different so-called plans of 
salvation existing among us today, when there should be only one true and 
perfect plan, as found in the days of Christ.”

“It does seem strange that there should be so many roads leading, as it is 
claimed, in one direction.  I declare, I never thought of that before.”

“Well, we will try to cover all those points before we finish.  Let us 
examine this principle.  Let us see if the idea of water baptism appears 
reasonable.  The Lord has wisely and kindly selected this form of ordinance 
for the remission of sins.  It was with this object in view that John 
advocated the principle.  (Mark 1:4)  Peter promised it on the day of 
Pentecost.  (Acts 2:38)  Saul also received aid to arise and have his sins 
washed away.  (Acts 22:16)  And so it was taught by different disciples as a 
means whereby God would remit sins.”

“And as you have already stated, there are various modes of baptism among 
various sects.  What is your method?”  queried the lawyer.

TRUE BAPTISM IS BY IMMERSION

“The only correct form is that explained in the Bible.  Baptism was performed 
anciently by immersion, in fact no other mode was thought of until centuries 
after the day of Christ.  The word baptize is from the Greek baptizo or 
bapto, meaning to plunge or immerse, and such noted writers as Polybius, 
Strabo, Dion, Cassius, Mosheim, Luther, Calvin, Bossuet, Schaaf, Baxter, 
Jeremy Taylor, Robinson, and others, all agree that with the ancients 
immersion, and no other form, was baptism.

“The holy record itself explains the mode so plainly that even a wayfaring 
man may understand.  John selected a certain place on account of their being 
much water.  (John 3:23)  Christ himself was baptized in a river after which 
he came up out of the water.  (Mark 1:5-10)  Both Philip and the eunuch went 
down into the water, (Acts 8:38-39) and Paul likens baptism to the burial and 
resurrection of Christ, dying from sin, buried in water, and resurrected to a 
new life.  (Romans 6:3-5)  Jesus declares that a man must be born of water as 
well as the Spirit.  (John 3:5) By being immersed we are born of the water, 
and we cannot liken baptism to a birth when performed in any other way.

“How mankind can accept any other form in the face of all these facts, is 
more than I can account for.  I think enough has been said to show that I am 
correct in my views regarding the object and mode of baptism, so now let us 
inquire who are proper subjects.”

“Why, all who have souls to save, I suppose,” said the doctor.

THOSE ELIGIBLE FOR BAPTISM

“Yes, providing they have obeyed the two principles already mentioned; that 
is, faith and repentance; for Christ commanded his apostles to teach before 
baptizing.  (Matthew 28:19-20)  The candidate must believe before he can be 
baptized.  (Mark 16:16)  Before Philip baptized the people of Samaria they 
believed the gospel as he taught it.  (Acts 8:12)  When the eunuch asked for 
baptism at the hands of this same disciple, Philip answered:  ‘If thou 
believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.’  (Acts 8:37)

“All persons, then, who are capable of understanding, are fit subjects for 
baptism as soon as they believe and have repented.  None is exempt, not even 
was Cornelius, who was so generous that a report of his good deeds reached 
the throne of God.  His prayers were so mingled with faith that they brought 
down an angel from heaven; yet through baptism alone was it possible that he 
could gain membership in the fold of Christ.  (Acts 10)  We see, then, that 
all, except little children, are proper subjects for this ordinance, 
provided, as stated, that they have faith, and have truly repented of their 
sins.”

“And do you claim that little children are exempt?”  said the doctor.

“I do; baptism is for the remission of sins, and little children, being free 
from sin, are of necessity exempt.”

“I do not see how you make that doctrine accord with the teachings of the 
Bible.  Did not Jesus say, ‘Suffer little children to come unto me’?”  (Luke 
18:16)

“He did, but instead of administering the ordinance of baptism to them he 
took them in his arms and blessed them, declaring at the same time that they 
were pure and free from sin like unto those who are in the kingdom of heaven.  
A little child is free from sin, is pure in heart, in fact, is the great 
example of goodness which Christ points out for us to follow.  (Mark 10:13-
16)  Baptism, then, is for people who are old enough to embrace it 
intelligently, not for children who cannot understand its significance, and 
who already belong to the kingdom of heaven.”

GIFT OF HOLY GHOST PROMISED

“We have now examined three of the fundamental principles of the gospel of 
salvation.  There is one more,” continued Durant, “that I wish to touch upon, 
after which we will discuss a subject that is of more interest to you perhaps 
than any of these.  The principle which I now wish to speak of is the gift of 
the Holy Ghost, which in olden times always followed obedience to the 
principles we have discussed, and when once received brought with it some of 
the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

“When the first sermon was delivered after the crucifixion of Christ, at the 
time when the apostles were endowed with power from on high, a multitude of 
people were pricked in their hearts, and asked Peter and the rest of the 
apostles what they should do.  Peter answered this all-important question; 
and so far as authority to do so was concerned, we must admit that he, of all 
men at that particular time, was fully capable, for he was in possession of 
the keys of the kingdom of God, bestowed upon him by Christ himself.  He was 
the senior apostle, and, with his brethren, had been endowed with power from 
above.  Therefore, he more than any minister of our day, occupied a place 
that enabled him to answer correctly and with authority.”

“You are stating the case properly, but what did he tell them?” queried the 
man of law.

“His answer is found in the second chapter of Acts, beginning with the 38th 
verse.  You will observe that as soon as he discovered that they had faith, 
he taught them repentance, then baptism for the remission of sins, and 
followed these doctrines with a promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

“I have it here,” said the doctor, who had been busy with his Bible.  “’Then 
Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of 
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the 
Holy Ghost.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all 
that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.’”  (Acts 
2:38-39)

SIGNS TO FOLLOW BELIEVERS

“But how were they to receive the Holy Ghost?” inquired Mr. Brown.

“By the laying on of hands,” answered Durant.  “When peter went down into 
Samaria for the purpose of bestowing this gift on those whom Philip had 
baptized, he did it by the laying on of hands.  (Acts 8:17)  Ananias 
conferred it upon Paul in the same manner.  (Acts 9:17)  And Paul did the 
same in the case of those who were baptized at Ephesus; (Acts 19:2-6) and 
when the people received this birth of the Spirit, (John 3:5) they also 
received the promised blessings; they were entitled to the signs which he 
promised would follow, for, he said, ‘These signs shall follow them that 
believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new 
tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it 
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall 
recover.  (Mark 16:17-18)  We have now discovered the conditions:  faith, 
repentance, baptism for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands for 
the reception of the Holy Ghost, with the promise of Christ that the signs 
shall follow.”

To this the doctor replied:  “you must remember, my friend, that the signs 
were only given in order to establish the Church in the days of the apostles, 
but now they are dispensed with and no longer needed.”

“To the law and the testimony,” replied Durant, “and give me chapter and 
verse to substantiate the assertion you have just made.”

GIFT OF THE PROPHECY TO STAY IN CHURCH

“If you will read the 13th chapter of 1st Corinthians, you will learn that 
‘whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they 
shall cease.’”  (1 Corinthians 13:8)

“This is correct,” answered Durant, “but if you will take pains to read the 
two verses following, you will see that we know in part, and we prophesy in 
part.  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part 
shall be done away.  (1 Corinthians 13:9-10)  My friend, instead of this 
quotation proving that these things are done away, it establishes the 
assertion that they shall remain until perfection shall come.  Surely no 
reasonable man will say that we have come to perfection.”

“Hm’m,” mused the doctor, “I have understood that these gifts were no longer 
needed.  This certainly is the conclusion that the ministers of the day have 
come to.”

“This is not surprising,” continued Durant, “for this good old Bible declares 
that the time will come when the people will turn from sound doctrine to 
fables.”  (2 Timothy 4:4)

“I must admit that you have convinced me that baptism is a necessity, and 
when I am baptized, the ordinance will be performed in the proper manner,” 
said the doctor.

AUTHORITY NEEDED TO PERFORM BAPTISMS

“I am pleased to learn that, but I may have another surprise for you yet.  
May I ask, who do you intend shall baptize you.”

“My minister, I suppose; why?”

“If the words of the Bible be true, there may be a doubt as to whether your 
minister is authorized to baptize you.”

Do you mean that these men, ministers of the gospel, have no authority to 
officiate in that ordinance?  I wonder what you will undertake next, but 
proceed, for I am now prepared for surprises.”

“I assure you, my dear sir, I only wish to refer to a few doctrines from the 
Bible which are necessary to be understood by you in order that you may 
obtain eternal life.  Thus far we have only examined the first principles of 
the gospel, but now we shall speak of the officers whom Christ first placed 
in his Church, and learn by what means men receive authority to act in the 
name of God.  Paul tells us that God has placed ‘first apostles, secondarily 
prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing,’ 
etc., (1 Corinthians 12:28) and says the work is built upon the foundation of 
apostles.  (Ephesians 2:20)  He furthermore declares that these officers have 
been placed in the Church for the work of the ministry, and will remain until 
we all come to a knowledge of the truth.  (Ephesians 4:11-13)  Have all 
mankind come to a knowledge of the truth?”

“One would think not from the things we have talked about,” interrupted the 
lawyer.  “But go on.”

APOSTASY FROM PRIMITIVE CHURCH

“If not, then why have the officers whom God placed in the Church for the 
purpose of bringing all to a unity of the faith been dispensed with?  Paul 
tells us that these officers were to keep us from being tossed to and fro and 
carried about by every wind of doctrine which is taught by man.  At the 
present time, when men declare they have no need of apostles or prophets, 
they are divided and sub-divided, and in fact are carried about by every 
doctrine that is promulgated -- as Paul saw that they would be, if inspired 
apostles and prophets were not found to lead them.

“With the loss of these officers the authority was lost and all of the gifts 
and graces of the ancient Church were taken away in what was known as the 
Apostasy, with the result that the various sects today are disrobed of all 
her beautiful garments; and even those who believe otherwise are crying out 
that these gifts, graces and ordinances are useless in this age of the world.  
Did Christ establish the true order, or did he not?”

“Certainly,” answered the doctor.

“Well, then,” continued Durant, “has any man a right to change it?  And if 
any man, or even an angel from heaven, should alter it in the least, will he 
not come under the condemnation that Paul uttered when he said:  ‘Though we, 
or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we 
have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  (Galatians 1:8)  Christ placed 
these officers and ordinances in the Church for the perfecting of the saints, 
and anyone teaching contrary to this is a perverter of the gospel.  Now then, 
in what church do we find apostles and prophets?”

LEGAL ADMINISTRATORS NOT FOUND IN SECTS

The doctor replied, “There are none; but you must remember there must be a 
preacher, for ‘how shall they hear without a preacher’?”

“And in the next verse Paul asks, ‘how shall they preach except they be 
sent?’  (Romans 10:14-15)  This same apostle says that no man is to take the 
honor unto himself, but he that is called of God as was Aaron.  (Hebrews 5:4)  
Aaron was called by revelation, (Exodus 4:14-17) hence we see that no man is 
to preach the gospel except he be called by revelation from God.  As I said 
instead of men being called by revelation -- as the Bible declares they 
should be -- in our day they argue that God has not revealed himself for 
almost 1800 years, and that such manifestations are not needed now.”

“But,” queried the doctor, “did not Jesus say, ‘Go ye into all the world, and 
preach the gospel’?”  (Mark 16:15)

“He did, but was he then talking to modern ministers?  When he gave his 
apostles authority to preach, did that give all men who feel disposed to take 
the honor unto themselves the same authority?  He gave his apostles to 
understand that they had not chosen him but he had chosen them, (John 15:16) 
but in this day men reverse the condition.  Then again, he sent his servants 
into the world to preach his gospel without purse or script.  (Luke 10:4)  
Paul says his reward is this, ‘That when I preach the gospel, I may make the 
gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.’  
(1 Corinthians 9:18)  Now, I wonder how conditions in the ministry today 
square with these principles.”

“Then what has become of the gospel?”  asked the lawyer.

PROPHETS FORETOLD THE APOSTASY

“The Bible,” continued Durant, “may even give a key to that.  Paul says that 
the coming of Jesus Christ will not be, save there be ‘a falling away’; (2 
Thessalonians 2:3) and that ‘in the last days perilous times shall come.’ (2 
Timothy 3:1)  People ‘will not endure sound doctrine,’ but will ‘heap to 
themselves teachers, having itching ears;’ and shall turn from the truth to 
fables; (2 Timothy 4:3-4) and will have a ‘form of godliness, but will deny 
the power thereof.  (2 Timothy 3:5)

“Peter also says these false teachers will make merchandise of the souls of 
men.  (2 Peter 2:1-3)  Micah says:  ‘The heads thereof judge for reward, and 
the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for 
money:  yet will they lean upon the Lord, and say, Is not the Lord among us?’ 
(Micah 3:11)  Now my friends, do not the different sects of the day present 
us with a literal fulfillment of all these sayings?  Have they not 
transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting 
covenant?  (Isaiah 24:5)  John Wesley in his 94th sermon, referring to the 
condition of the Church after it had departed from the right way and lost the 
gifts, says, ‘The real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost 
were no longer to be found in the Christian Church was because the Christians 
were turned heathens again, and had only a dead form left’.”

“It would appear then, that God has forsaken mankind and left us without any 
hope,” said the lawyer.

RESTORATION OF GOSPEL FORETOLD

“No, he has not; but this falling away is the result of mankind forsaking 
God, by changing his gospel and departing from its teachings, as I have 
already shown.  But he has promised through his servants, that there would be 
a dispensation when he would gather together all things in Christ, (Ephesians 
1:10) and would restore all things which he has spoken by the mouth of all 
his holy prophets since the world began.  (Acts 3:19-21)  This dispensation 
was called the dispensation of the fulness of times.  Daniel, who received by 
revelation the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, saw what would take 
place in later times, when the God of heaven would set up a kingdom.  (Daniel 
2:44)  John, the revelator, while on the desolate island, Patmos (some 90 
years after Christ), saw how this gospel would be restored; namely that an 
angel would bring it from heaven, (Revelation 14:6) and Christ says ‘it shall 
be preached in all the world as a witness unto all nations; and then shall 
the end come.’  (Matthew 24:14)

“As God is always the same, and has but one plan for the redemption of the 
human family, we may expect to see the same gospel with like promises 
preached in a similar way.  Where do you find it as it existed anciently?  
But as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the 
coming of the Son of man.  (Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26-27)  Noah was sent by 
the Lord to foretell the coming of the flood, but the people rejected his 
testimony; in fact, whenever God has revealed his mind and will to man in 
days gone by, the world, instead of receiving the same, has rejected the 
message and said all manner of evil concerning the prophets, and in many 
instances have killed them, as was the case with Christ himself.

GOSPEL RESTORED IN MODERN TIMES

“Now then, my friends, we are living in the dispensation of the fulness of 
times, when God is gathering together all things in Christ.  An angel has 
come from the heavens and brought the everlasting gospel, and on the 6th day 
of April, 1830, God -- through revelation to man -- organized the Church of 
Jesus Christ, in the exact pattern of the true Church, as it existed in the 
days of Christ, with apostles and prophets, and since that day the servants 
of God have been traveling through the world preaching the same, as a witness 
that the end will soon come.

“They call upon mankind to exercise faith in God our Eternal Father, and in 
his Son Jesus Christ; also to repent of and turn from their sins, and be 
baptized by one who has been called of God by revelation, and receive the 
laying on of hands for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost.  As servants of God 
they then promise that the convert shall know of the doctrine, whether it be 
of God or man; (John 7:17) and, furthermore, that the signs which followed 
the believers in the days of the ancient apostles will follow the believers 
at the present time, for the same cause will always produce the same effect.

“My friends, as a servant of God, I call upon you to obey these principles 
and you shall have the promised blessings.  I am an elder in the Church of 
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  My home is in Salt Lake City, Utah.”

The doctor and lawyer were very much surprised, but they had read the 
quotations from the Bible and were not slow to inform Mr. Durant that the 
Good Book substantiated his argument.  Thanking him for the patient 
explanation of his belief, each obtained his card containing the articles of 
faith of his Church, and bidding each goodnight, all retired.

INVITATION TO INVESTIGATE GOSPEL

We have tried to present to you, in a plain and very simple manner, some of 
the first principles of the true gospel of Christ.  What do you think of 
them?  Will they, or will they not, stand scrutiny?  It is left with you to 
answer, and as God has bless you with free agency, it is your privilege to 
judge and decide.

Do not treat these doctrines indifferently, nor carelessly throw them aside.

Should they be true, the message is of the utmost importance to you.  
Surrounded with so many proofs, the faith of the Latter-day Saints demands 
your further investigation.

Other literature is available to all interested.  Read, listen, investigate!  
Thousands have done so before, and bear testimony to having received a 
knowledge of the divine truth, as herein presented.

I part from you with the words of the poet --

“Know this that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv'n,
That God will force no man to heav'n.

“He’ll call, persuade, direct aright,
And bless with wisdom, love and light,
In nameless ways be good and kind,
But never force the human mind.

“Freedom and reason make us men;
Take these away, what are we then?
Mere animals, and just as well
The beasts may think of heav'n or hell.

"May we no more our pow'rs abuse.
But ways of truth and goodness choose;
Our God is pleased when we improve
His grace and seek his perfect love."
(Text:  Anon., ca. 1805.  Boston.  Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835.
Music: Roger L. Miller, b. 1937 
1985, Hymns, #240, Know This, That Every Soul is Free)